Discussion with fathers
Panel: Raymond Rios, Daniel Taveras, Max Soto
Soap Summit 2

RAYMOND RIOS
Raymond Rios is a 17 year old teen fathers with a son, Andrew Rios. Raymond has been in the Inwood House Young Fathers Program for almost two years. He is currently a senior at Satellite Academy in the Bronx. His goals are to finish high school, attend college and get a job working with youth. He wants to continue to be the best father in the world.

DANIEL TAVERAS
Daniel Taveras is a 17 year old teen father with a son, Daniel Taveras. Danny has been in the Inwood and has been in the Inwood House House Young Fathers Program for 2 years. He is currently working at Staples Supplies and attends Martha Neilson's G.E.D. in the Bronx. His lifetime goals are to always stay employed, obtain his G.E.D., and to become a computer technician. He will continue to be the best father he can for his son.

MAX SOTO
Max Soto is a 21 year old teen father three times. His oldest son is Ricki, who is 5 years old, Stephanie is 2 years old, and Alize is 1 year old. Max is currently a sophomore at Monroe College majoring in Hospitality Management and works part time at the Covenant House. His lifetime goals are to obtain his degree, to get a good job working with youth, and to raise his children in the right way

Transcript of the Proceedings
September 7, 1996

SONNY FOX: Now I want to bring in the young fathers. Ben Powell is a gentleman who has helped me locate these three young men. We met with them, had dinner with them and I felt that they would be the appropriate persons here. Ben Powell is a gentleman who runs a fathers' program up in the Bronx, there are two programs, one in the Bronx, one in New York, right?

BEN POWELL: Right.

SONNY FOX: Okay. Now, tell me just a little bit about the program, Ben

BEN POWELL: It's a young fathers' program, and the program services teen fathers 21 and under. The oldest young father is 21 years old. We have some that are 13 and 14 also. So it's a situation where a lot of young men in the Bronx find themselves engaging in sex at a young age, and having to deal with the consequences of sacrificing their youthful years and become fathers. The program helps these guys to stay in school, prepare them for the workplace. We teach parenting, and child development, education workshops, and stuff like that. We also do family planning, individual counseling, group counseling to prevent any ongoing pregnancies in the future while they're still trying to accomplish their educational goals.

SONNY FOX: Where does the money come from?

BEN POWELL: The money comes from the State through a consortium called Better Bronx for Youth. I'm happy to say that it's been a pretty successful program. It's been running for two years, and out of 106 clients that we serviced in the last two years, there were only two repeat pregnancies, which is pretty good. The program is working very well. It's, it's really keeping these guys in school, and it's keeping them off the street, and it's giving them some place to come where they can get support to deal with the situation that they, they, they're faced with. And even out of that program, the Young Fathers Program, we now have a youth prevention program called the Boys to Men program, that deals with guys ten to 14, 15, that keeps them from coming into my program. So we've incorporated another program, actually, out of the Young Fathers Program. There's a lot of programs that are starting' to use our program as a model to follow by. So we feel that the program is working. We definitely want to see it continue to go on. We think people should know that it's, it's all of our problems. It's a community problem, it's the country's problem, it's a world problem, when you talk about teenage pregnancy, and not to condone these guys, or to ridicule them, but to educate them, and to help them make better choices.

SONNY FOX: Okay. These are the gentlemen, Max Soto, Daniel Taveras, Raymond, start with you, Max. Tell me how old you, first, let's talk about how old you are.

MAX SOTO: Twenty-two.

SONNY FOX: Okay. Now, tell me about your fatherhood. When did it start, and how many kids do you have?

MAX SOTO: My fatherhood started when I was 17 years old. I have, I have three children now, but when, when I first came to Ben's program, I had two, two children, and one on the way.

SONNY FOX: And these are from how many women?

MAX SOTO: Two.

SONNY FOX: And how old was the first mother when she became pregnant?

MAX SOTO: She was 15 years old.

SONNY FOX: Fifteen. And how old were you at that time?

MAX SOTO: I was 17.

SONNY FOX: How old were you when you fathered the second child, by the second woman?

MAX SOTO: I was, like, 19.

SONNY FOX: These three children, what are their ages at this point?

MAX SOTO: Well, I have a son named Rick, he's five years old. I have a daughter, Stephanie, she's two years old. And I have a, another son, named Alize, he's one year old.

SONNY FOX: Are you married to either of these two ladies?

MAX SOTO: I'm not married.

SONNY FOX: Are you living with either of these two ladies?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Which one, the second one?

MAX SOTO: The second one with my daughter and my son.

SONNY FOX: And do you stay in touch with the first woman at all?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Regularly?

MAX SOTO: I stay in touch, like, like every other week, or so.

SONNY FOX: Okay.

MAX SOTO: To see my son.

SONNY FOX: We'll get back to some of this, but I just want to go down the line, so everybody knows who we're talking to. Daniel, tell me about how old you were and the circumstances of your fatherhood?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Okay, my fatherhood started when I was 15. And, she was pregnant when I was 14, but she had the baby when I turned 15.

SONNY FOX: You were 14, how old was she?

DANIEL TAVERAS: She was 14.

SONNY FOX: So you were both 14.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: And you become a father at 15.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: How old are you now, Daniel?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Seventeen.

SONNY FOX: What is your situation with her? Do you see her? Are you married to her?

DANIEL TAVERAS: We don't get along, we don't get along at all. I see her every day, almost, but we don't get along. But we try, we fix our problems, 'cause we have a son, you know? So we try to get along. I see her every day. But we don't get along. [LAUGHTER]

SONNY FOX: And the son is living with his mother?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. I have temporary custody until she finish college. Then, is going back to her, back to her house. I only have temporary custody.

SONNY FOX: So is she living with you, now?

DANIEL TAVERAS: My baby, yeah. Not her.

SONNY FOX: The son is living with you now?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: Okay. Raymond? That's your only child, right?

RAYMOND RIOS: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Who is that on your lap?

RAYMOND RIOS: This is my son, Andrew. He's one year old. He likes to smile and play. And he loves cameras. [LAUGHTER]

SONNY FOX: How old was the mother of this child when, when she became pregnant by you?

RAYMOND RIOS: She was 15.

SONNY FOX: And you?

RAYMOND RIOS: I was 16.

SONNY FOX: And what is the situation with you and her now.

RAYMOND RIOS: We got a great relationship. I've been with her for over two years. And we don't, we don't have, we don't seem to have any problems.

SONNY FOX: But you're not married.

RAYMOND RIOS: No, I'm not married.

SONNY FOX: You have a job?

RAYMOND RIOS: Yes. It's not on the books, though. It's not illegal either. It's money.

SONNY FOX: Daniel, you got a job?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: Max?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Max, does any of your money go to the support of your kids?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Is it deducted by court order?

MAX SOTO: Yeah, by court order.

SONNY FOX: Okay. To both families?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Do you resent that?

MAX SOTO: No.

SONNY FOX: I mean, it's a lot of money going out of your paycheck, then.

MAX SOTO: It's all right. As long as it's supporting my kids, I'm all right. It makes me feel good, 'cause at least I'm contributing to my kids, so it makes me feel good.

SONNY FOX: Do you plan to have any more children by anybody else?

MAX SOTO: Nope. [LAUGHTER]

SONNY FOX: You finally figured out how you can do it without having a kid, right?

MAX SOTO: Yup.

SONNY FOX: You're a slow learner, Max. [LAUGHTER] Dan, you told me that when you had intercourse with the woman by whom you had the baby, you had condoms with you?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. I had condoms in my pocket, but I didn't think of using them.

SONNY FOX: Max, why didn't you use a condom?

MAX SOTO: Why?

SONNY FOX: First time.

MAX SOTO: Because, I don't know. I didn't, tell you the truth. I didn't really care too much about condoms.

SONNY FOX: You didn't care about using them, or you didn't care about...

MAX SOTO: I didn't care about using them.

SONNY FOX: Did you think anything, about AIDS, or anything of that sort?

MAX SOTO: No, I wasn't thinkin' about AIDS, I wasn't thinkin' about kids. I was just 17 year-old kid, just wanted to get busy.

SONNY FOX: You got busy. Okay, that was the first one

MAX SOTO: I didn't think about the consequences that would come afterwards.

SONNY FOX: Max, you found out what the consequences were with the first child.

MAX SOTO: It didn't really sink in, then. [LAUGHTER]

SONNY FOX: I guess not, because you had a second one.

MAX SOTO: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: And then the third one?

MAX SOTO: The third one, really, it, the third one, I'm not sayin' it was a mistake, but she was on the Pills. But, it's my, I think my, you know, sperms just, like, they just hit the right spot. [LAUGHTER]

SONNY FOX: Right.

MAX SOTO: I don't know. I can't explain that one. 'Cause she was on, she was on

SONNY FOX: We'll just put it down as a miracle.

MAX SOTO: She was on the Pill, she was on birth controls.

SONNY FOX: But now you're serious about using birth control.

MAX SOTO: No, I'm serious, I'm serious, now, I ain't tryin' to have no more.

SONNY FOX: All right. Dan, you were 14?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

SONNY FOX: Had you heard about condoms?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. I heard about 'em, but I never took the time to learn how you put them on, or anything. I just had them in my pockets, just to say, "I have condoms," that's it. I was just 14, when I saw that body, I was just thinking about gettin' busy. You don't say, there was no condom on my mind. See? I was just thinking about having sex, you know. Now, now I use them, but back, way back then I just had 'em in my pockets to say, "I have condoms."

SONNY FOX: Ray, when you had the experience that created the child, had you been with this woman, having sexual intercourse with her previously?

RAYMOND RIOS: Well, yes.

SONNY FOX: And why at this point did it happen?

RAYMOND RIOS: Well, I really don't know. But I never used a condom, we were having sex for a while, but it just caught up to us. And that's how it happened.

SONNY FOX: Max, why did these women keep the children, instead of either having an abortion, or putting them up for adoption?

MAX SOTO: Well, I guess, she wanted to, like, trap me, or something like that, like,

SONNY FOX: She wanted to trap you?

MAX SOTO: Yeah. Like she probably figured that if she have a child by me, I'm gonna be with her forever.

SONNY FOX: All right. Dan?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah, 'cause, when I was 15, I told her, "I don't know where I'm gonna be, what job I'm gonna pick up with, anyway," I have never, in my family, never been an abortion. And there's not gonna be one by me. So I say, "Keep that child. I'll try to feed him any way possible, I made her keep it. She was, her mom was gonna make her have an abortion, but I said, "No way." And I took her to my house. And she was living with me for a couple of months, 'cause I wasn't gonna let her mother make her get an abortion.

SONNY FOX: And Ray, had the mother of this child considered either terminating by abortion or putting up the child for adoption?

RAYMOND RIOS: Well, it was planned, we were supposed to terminate the pregnancy, but she wasn't ready, she wasn't tryin' to hear it. She figured it was her body. She, she felt that she couldn't deal with the stress afterwards, and she felt she wasn't ready for it.

SONNY FOX: So why wasn't it terminated, so why didn't it go through?

RAYMOND RIOS: Well, she threw away her Medicaid. She did everything she could to not to terminate the pregnancy. She wanted the baby from the beginning.

SONNY FOX: She did want the baby.

RAYMOND RIOS: And I told her, "I can't tell you what to do, because it's your body." I told her, "Whatever choice you make, I'm behind you 100%." So whether she wanted to terminate the pregnancy, or whether she wanted to keep the pregnancy, I had her backed 100%.

SONNY FOX: No father in your house growing up?

RAYMOND RIOS: For about, 'until I was six years old. Then, it was in and out of jail.

SONNY FOX: For him. So he was absent your life after six.

RAYMOND RIOS: Mm-hmm.

SONNY FOX: Dan?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah, my real father wasn't there. I had a stepfather, but I didn't get along with him, so we never had, you know.

SONNY FOX: Max?

MAX SOTO: Yeah, I had a stepfather, too.

SONNY FOX: Was he a presence in your life?

MAX SOTO: Not really. I, I didn't really look up to him.

SONNY FOX: Who wants to ask some questions of these young men? Yes, sir?

AUDIENCE MAN Are any of you still in school?

MAX SOTO: I am. I'm in college, now.

DANIEL TAVERAS: I am. I'm taking my GED.

RAYMOND RIOS: I got a half a year left in high school.

AUDIENCE MAN: And is that where you see the mother of your child every day. Do you live together?

RAYMOND RIOS: We live together right now, and I got her back into school. I figured, if I'm gonna finish high school, so is she.

AUDIENCE MAN: Okay. So you're living together, and you're raising the child together.

RAYMOND RIOS: Yes.

AUDIENCE MAN: And you're both in school.

RAYMOND RIOS: Yes.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Daniel. You said you have temporary custody of your child.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Do you live with your mother?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah, I live with my, with my mother and my sister, but, really, my mother has temporary custody of my son. I don't live with my mother, I live with a woman, but, like, it's in the same building. Me and my mother take care of the son.

AUDIENCE WOMAN? And your son lives with you or with your mother?

DANIEL TAVERAS: With me.

SONNY FOX: The woman you're living with is not the mother of your child?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. She's not.

SONNY FOX: This is another one.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Another woman.

SONNY FOX: Okay.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Any of you watch soap operas?

SONNY FOX: Do you watch soaps?

MAX SOTO: I do.

DANIEL TAVERAS: I do.

RAYMOND RIOS: I do, too. [LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE]

SONNY FOX: What's your favorite show?

DANIEL TAVERAS: "Days of Our Lives."

MAX SOTO: "All My Children."

RAYMOND RIOS: "All My Children."

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Do you guys like being fathers?

RAYMOND RIOS: I love it.

SONNY FOX: Well how did you know how to be a father, if you didn't have men in your lives, if you didn't have father figures to learn how to be a father, how do you know how to be a father?

DANIEL TAVERAS: In my case, there's some problems that I can't handle, 'cause, you know, I, I never had a father. But, like, there's so much love between me and my son, it's kind'a easy for me. 'Cause there's so much love, it makes it easy for me. The loves makes me understand in every way. I'm say, I never had a father, but I don't know, like, I love him so much, I could understand everything. I could understand when he's hungry, when he feelin' sad, when he needs his mother, I understand everything. When he's sick, 'cause I love him a lot. I guess that's what makes me understand.

RAYMOND RIOS: It, it really comes naturally. It comes naturally. There's no, there's no training you have to take to be a father, and if there was, I didn't apply for it. [LAUGHTER]

AUDIENCE WOMAN: If you, if you had it to do over again, would you have waited?

RAYMOND RIOS: Obviously.

DANIEL TAVERAS: I definitely would have waited.

MAX SOTO: Yeah. I would have waited. I definitely would have waited till I was just, you know, finished school, had a career going' for myself, and, I would'a waited.

SONNY FOX: Back there?

AUDIENCE WOMAN: What were your aspirations or your dreams, what did you see yourself as?

DANIEL TAVERAS: 'Cause of my child, that's why I'm goin' to school, and that's why I'm, I'm working. 'Cause before I didn't have no life at all. I dropped out of school. I was just in the street. I think my child come into this world, 'cause he made me realize that ain't no, life ain't not joke. So, I'm happy, 'cause my child made me be a better person.

RAYMOND RIOS: Yeah. I'll agree with him. 'Cause I wasn't doin' nothin' neither. I stayed in the street, do very illegal things, and not really worried about the consequences that would come after those things. But now, I have to make choices that, that benefit me and my child. And my, and my wife.

AUDIENCE MAN: From what I understand, that's not usually the case, though. What is different about your situations, do you think, that has, has allowed the children to positively affect you?

RAYMOND RIOS: Well, what you're sayin' about, about men leavin' the children, not worryin' about them, well, I, I see it as they're cowards. They took, they took a little boy's way out. They weren't ready to be fathers, and I'm not sayin' I was ready to be a father, but I think, I think it was thanks to the Inwood House Young Father's Program that they showed me, 'cause I was really stressed. I mean, you just get to the point, it got to a point once where I used to bang my head against a wall. And I felt like I was the only one, I was by myself. But then, we had a, we got a real nice group of guy, like Danny and Max who really break it down to you. And Max really helped me out a lot, 'cause he, he let me know what was going' on, and what I was about to go through, because he had been through the same thing. So, I saw, and then I realized, just 'cause I'm a father, doesn't mean life stops for me. You know? It's just another obstacle just to get around. And I think I'm dealin' with this obstacle pretty well.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Before you had your children, did your friends even talk about contraception, condom use? Was it a joke? Was it discussed, or was it just "getting busy" talked about?

MAX SOTO: Around my way, you know, it was, like, "Let's see how much girls we can get." You know, it was like a competition thing.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Any discussion of getting pregnant, or anything?

MAX SOTO: No, there was no discussion about that at all.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: And once she became pregnant, how did your friends react?

MAX SOTO: My friends was, like, "Oh, congratulations." That fake friendship. They, "Oh, congratulations." Now, you know, I don't know, man, really.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Was it considered a manly thing?

MAX SOTO: Yeah.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Daniel? Your friends, too?

DANIEL TAVERAS: The first time I told my friends the news, they were, like, "Danny, you're the man, you're the man." And I was, like, I, I was feeling, glad, 'cause I was really not thinking. I was, just, "Oh, yeah, she's just pregnant." But then, when I saw that stomach growing, I kind, it kind'a start to get to me.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Raymond? You, too? Was it the same? Were you, when she became pregnant, were your friends congratulating you?

RAYMOND RIOS: No, they were tellin' me my life was over. [LAUGHTER] They were, they was, just, "Man, you through. No more partyin'. We gonna see you in your house, babysittin'. You'll probably even be breast feedin' him." [LAUGHTER]

AUDIENCE WOMAN: What are some of the things that got you into the program that you're in, and can you describe some of the things that happen in the program that help you in your day to day relationship with the women?

MAX SOTO: Well, the way I got into the program was 'cause my girlfriend, she was in the Young Mothers Program. And, by that time, they had a Young Fathers outreach. Actually, I was the first enrolled with Ben Powell, two years ago, in the Young Fathers Program.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: But what made it cool for you to do that?

MAX SOTO: I just wanted to see what the program was about? And it helped me out a lot.

SONNY FOX: What, specifically?

MAX SOTO: It helped me how to be a father, self-esteem. It helped me with, you know, seein' life, you know, in a better perspective.

SONNY FOX: Daniel?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. A friend told me about the program, and at first, I, I really didn't like it. I was, like, "What can they really teach me," but this program is, for me, I don't see it like a program, I see it like a family. 'Cause I have learned, 'cause almost all the guys in the program are older than me. So I have learned from Ben and from the guys. You know, when I went in there, I was, like, for me, I was a bum. I didn't even care about myself. I didn't how I looked, I didn't care, but when I went in the program, Ben made me see that you have to love yourself. And that's something that I learned 'cause of Ben Powell. That's why I thank him every day. 'Cause he, he told me to love myself.

MAX SOTO: Because we know everybody, we know each other, we know each other's thoughts. We know how to joke around with each other. We know when one of us is, like, we, we're in trouble, you know, we really don't want to joke around right now. This is a real serious situation. And it's like a group of guys that actually care. And that's hard to find. Especially in the Bronx, you know? And we listen to each other, what we got to say, how we feel, or any situation, really. And a lot is, a, a lot of it is thanks to Ben Powell, right there, 'cause this is a guy, right there, who deals with a lot. And, who gives up his house number to a lot of brothers, and is willing to counsel us any time we really need it. I figure we all benefitted from the program.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Guys, do you think if you had someone like Ben around when you were 14, you wouldn't have these kids?

MAX SOTO: Yes.

SONNY FOX: Well that prevention program Ben spoke about, if that program had been in place, perhaps. Before it gets to this. That's what they're trying to do now, is to intercept them even before this happens. I'm startled, as you are, I'm sure, of the fact that for all of the welter of information we've been feeding down the lines about condoms, and about AIDS, and about pregnancies, and so on, here these guys are living in the middle of our metropolitan area of New York, who watch television all the time. And still, the idea of condom use just hasn't penetrated. Something isn't working.

MAX SOTO: My mother was giving me condoms when I was 13. I started having sex at the age of ten. So she gave me condoms by the age of 13. She would lock me in my room, and make me read those AIDS books, the sexual transmitted diseases, what to look for, what not to look for. I had the kind of mother, that she wouldn't take no for an answer, 'cause I was her child. And nobody could tell her otherwise. So she educated me in every way possible. And I thank, I thank her for that, too. And through this whole thing she's behind my back 100%, so I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna sit here and lie and say, "I didn't know nothin' about condoms," or nothin' like that. 'Cause by the age of 13, I knew what AIDS actually meant. You know.

SONNY FOX: But you told us a little while ago that you didn't like to use condoms.

MAX SOTO: Oh, yeah. Didn't like it. I had a top drawer, like the top drawer of my dresser, I had it full with 378 condoms. My mother used to bring 'em home for me, and I'd just throw 'em right in the drawer, right in the drawer, right in the drawer, right in the drawer. And it was full, 378 condoms. I remember. And I threw 'em all away as soon as my baby's mother got pregnant.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Was that because it wasn't cool to use among your friends?

MAX SOTO: Well not really that, 'cause I used to hang out with the big guys, a lot of the older guys, they always had a condom on 'em. They always said, "This is what you do, this is" But, I figured, when I'm in the moment, I'm not gonna say, I didn't feel like it was right to just stop, you know, and, like, hold up, throw on a condom, then keep going'. You know? It was tight, disgustin' to touch, and it leave this jelly stuff on your hand, and it used to stink. You know, I was really immature, and I just chose the wrong thing, made the wrong choice.

SONNY FOX: Richard?

AUDIENCE MAN: Could you be more specific about what the program is, and how long would you go, or what you do? You talk about it, but I don't know exactly what it is.

MAX SOTO: It's two days. Individual session for me, is on Tuesday. And on Thursday is a group session. You know, where we all get together, we talk about our problems, we talk about how to build self esteem. We really get into it on Thursdays, as a group. And we have workshops, we have other guys come in from other groups, I mean, from other agencies, and come in, and talk to us. And, we play ball, too, we play basketball. We have a gym upstairs. And it's a family thing.

SONNY FOX: Ray?

RAYMOND RIOS: The program really just deals with the problems we have. Really, it just caters to our every needs, recreation, basketball tournaments. We play basketball against other young fathers' programs, one Manhattan, Brooklyn. And it really, it helps us. We meet every Thursday, 4:00 o'clock, till around, last time we left around 8:00. They, they feed us. They feed us good, too. They supply transportation, too.

DANIEL TAVERAS: The program is so good. I work till 1:00 o'clock in the morning. My kid doesn't let me sleep at all in the night. And in the morning I have to go to school. But you come with all that stress to the program, it releases your stress. I leave out of there with a smile. Every time I go to the program, and I come out, I leave with a smile. You could come with the biggest stress, but Ben always is there, you know what I'm sayin'. And it's kind of funny, 'cause Ben doesn't have a son, and yet he's, he knows how to teach us how to be better person, and a better father to our kids, you know.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Are you responsible for bringing other guys into the movement?

MAX SOTO: Yeah, by word of mouth.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Before I used to give flyers to young people I used to see in the street.

BEN POWELL: And with the Boys to Men program, we're trying to show them there's more things out there than sex, you know? Let that be the last thing you worry about, 'cause you got your whole life ahead of you.

RAYMOND RIOS: I got, like, three cousins in the program. I brought all of them in there. And just like my cousin brought me. And I got another older cousin, I'm starting to bring to the Young Fathers Program. And I think they, they, they benefitted out of it. They learned a lot.

BEN POWELL: Just to get back to the question about exactly what the program does, Max was right when he said we meet every Thursday in a group for about four hours. That group is split with workshops around parenting, job readiness, training, and child development or education, or we might have a outside speaker come in and talk about the new overview of AIDS, and STDs, what's new types of contraceptive, and stuff like that. And it's also split with recreation. And recreation's part of a stress management time that relieves stress. You have to understand, these are guys that are going' to school, working, and trying to be a father all at the same time. At 40 years old, it can burn you out. So we have the gym so they can go over there, and if they want to play handball, they can hit, play however they want to ventilate, that gym is there as a part of that. We also do college tours in the summertime. We visited four colleges, actually, this year. We did Bowling State in Maryland, went to Howard University, went to Albany State, and we went to Columbia University. Prior to that, we went to New Paltz, we went to SUNY Purchase, and we went to C.W. Post. So the basic mission behind the Inwood House Young Fathers Program is to establish independency and self sufficiency through academic achievement. The education is thrown at them from the time they hit the door. If you're not gonna go to school, this is not the program for you. Now, if it's not public school, we'll look at alternative school, or GED program, but you have to understand without education, you will not make it in this world, and it's this new century that we're about to enter. Once we get by that, we move towards the employment component, and then we, we move out of that into the, the parenting and child development education component. We have a drop in center, where they can drop their kids off, and they can be attending their sessions while the kid is in the next room. There's a lot of services like that.

AUDIENCE MAN: Yeah, first of all, guys, congratulations.

GUYS: Thank you.

AUDIENCE MAN: I really feel like not only have you made a change in, in your lives, but you've made a change in mine, just listening. And also, Ben, I've never heard of this before. They obviously have a great deal of respect for you, and the way you have helped them. Where did you come from? [LAUGHTER]

BEN POWELL: Okay. I'm Ben Powell. I'm originally from Harlem, New York. I grew up without a father, also. I watched my brother grow up without his father, and, and a younger sister grow up without her father. I watched my mother struggle on welfare with us to, to bring us up, to, to get a education so that we could make something out of our lives. And I'm happy to say that me and, and all my siblings did go to college, or attended college, and we all have professional careers. Basically, I was just like these guys. I got into a lot of stuff. I finished high school two years late. I didn't finish in New York City, in the public schools here, I finished in a private school. After that, I went on to, to college in Augusta, Georgia, I went to Paine College. I left there after two years. I went to the New School for Social Research, I stayed there for a little while. I went into a organization called the City Volunteer Corps, right here in New York City. It's like a Urban Peace Corps. And that's where I got a lot of my skills. I knew that I always wanted to work with people, I just didn't know what kind. After doing that, my first professional job was a housing specialist at a program for young mothers who were addicted to crack cocaine, finding housing, helping them get their kids back from CWA by finding safe and stable housing. I moved from that to substance abuse counseling. After a while, I got tired of the young mothers, I wanted to find out what was going on on the other side, with the men. And when the opportunity came up to deal with these guys, I jumped right at it. I sat down, I helped design some of the program, what it needed. I had a lot of input in what the program was going to be about, what it needed, what these guys' needs were. And, and basically what makes it easy to work with these guys is that I deal with them each individually. There is no master plan, there is no training. Like he said, there is no curriculum.

These guys tell you what they need. And the key thing is listening. And once you can listen to what's going on, what their problems are, it's very easy to assess what their needs are, and then to lay it down and show them how to do it. This whole situation with teen fathers and teen mothers, really comes down to choices. You see, condoms is just a choice. And you can put 50 hundred ads on the TV screen that say, "Use condoms," or, you know, I've seen the new one, "If you don't have a parachute, don't jump," which is funny. It's just like the one, "This is your brain on drugs." You know. You have to teach these people, the young people, that they have a certain amount of power. And they have choices. You can do it, or you can not do it. It's okay not to do it. I mean, we can't just knock abstinence out of the way. You can also be a second time virgin. You can decide, "Well, I did it once, but I'm not gonna do it any more until certain things are placed." This is prevention. It's cheaper than going on welfare. It's cheaper than, you know, having to, to set up programs where now we gotta deal with a kid being here, we gotta deal with a young father that's in the situation. It's cheaper, and I don't see why, when I turn around, programs are being cut, or they're being sliced, or they're saying they don't, they don't work. I concentrate on one client at a time. If I could just get one of these guys to change their lives and their way of thinking, it was worth the whole amount of money that is spent, that it took that year to run that program. And actually, it's a lot of these guys are changin' their lives, so it's actually doing more than what it said it's doing.

AUDIENCE MAN: Thank you, Ben.

SONNY FOX: I'm going to preempt this for a second. I want to ask about welfare. You've either been on welfare, or the mothers of your children are on welfare now. How much did that play a part in becoming pregnant, if anything? Max?

MAX SOTO: Well, I can't speak for her, but it ain't really. I didn't think about welfare or nothing. I grew up on welfare, my mom's, and everything. But I wasn't thinking nothing of it.

DANIEL TAVERAS: Well, since my kid came into this world, the first thing I said, "My kid's not gonna be on welfare." He's not on welfare yet. He has a father with a body. Talk of working', bustin' my ass, I'm, I'm still gonna make money for my son. He's never going to welfare. Because he has a father. I was on welfare, 'cause I only had a mother. So I needed it. But he has a mother and a father, he doesn't needs welfare, so, I really can speak of, about my son, 'cause he's not on welfare.

SONNY FOX: Ray?

RAYMOND RIOS: I was on welfare when I was younger, because, you know, my Pops was in jail, my Ma has had two jobs, and was still on welfare. And it still didn't do nothin' for us. And my child, before he was born, I didn't want him on welfare. But my baby's mother, which I really can't stand, even if they paid me, she, she put my son on welfare. And it's not like welfare's helpin' me out any, 'cause my son doesn't see any of the money that welfare sends him. The grandmother, she put him on her budget, her welfare, and he doesn't see any of the money. And her mother's on, his mother's on welfare, my baby's mother's on welfare, and she doesn't see none of her money. So I really, I really, you know, I don't like welfare. I never liked welfare. I don't like her mother. [LAUGHTER] And my son doesn't see any of this welfare money, no coupons or nothin', you know. I'm the one that gotta go out there 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon, to 12:00 at midnight, just to make $30.00, you know, for security. And then, go home, by, like, 1:00 in the morning, take a shower, by the time I get to bed, it's like, 2:00 o'clock, gotta wake up at 8:00 o'clock for school. My son, he's gonna get off of welfare by the time October. I'm trying to get him off in October. That way, his grandmother can't have no more money. I don't plan on paying the welfare back at all, because I ain't seen none of this money. So, I figure I'll take her to court, and let her pay it. I don't like welfare, I never did.

AUDIENCE MAN: You guys have, have obviously thought a lot about being a dad, and you've looked at your lives, and it sounds like you've made a lot of changes. When you watch, when you watch soaps, and you see two teenagers, it looks like they're going to be having sex, or thinking about it, what goes through your heads? What do you think?

DANIEL TAVERAS: I'm sorry for anybody that makes soaps, but I watch them, it's true, but they, they don't put the real thing in it. They don't put the real thing. See? They make it seem like everybody's so innocent. Yo. Times change. Now kids, kids don't want to play with Nintendo no more. They want to play with women. No, I'm serious. So they put on the soap, like, two kids, holdin' hands, and acting like they don't know nothin'. Come on. You know what I'm sayin'? We're in New York.

MAX SOTO: The thing that bothers my mind is, like, when, when, when a child is in a soap, all of a sudden the child gotta go somewhere, and you never see the child again. I mean [LAUGHTER] I mean, be real, you know what I'm sayin'? Let's keep it real, and leave the child there. You know, raise the child, and, I mean, that, that just boggles my mind when, when I see the child just be born, and just leave somewhere. "Oh, he's going' to California, or somethin', with his parents, with his grandmother's." I mean, you know, be real.

DANIEL TAVERAS: So, like, I was saying, the soaps ain't real. They make it seem like two kids have a child. Okay, they get married, and then everything ends up good now. After a while, like, like, we're just young, you get tired of that woman. You want to explore more women, you know what I'm saying? So life is real, you know what I'm saying? If you're going to make a soap, make, make us really watch, listen to it, not only watch it, listen to it. Make it seem like, yo, that, that happened to me. You know, something? Nothing I see on a soap has happened, 'cause it's too, it's too fake. We're living in the real world, that don't happen, you see what I'm saying? If you're gonna make something, make it kind of more realism, you know? You know what I'm saying, right?

RAYMOND RIOS: You really gotta get 'em, because where, where the soaps, it really, what it does, it, it surprises you, really, a lot. It, it always got you thinking. But when it comes down to young kids having kids? That's real serious. And you really can't play with no situation like that. 'Cause when it comes down to that, you gotta get real serious, and you gotta, like, you know? I don't know, it seems like a fairy tale that they in love, and they, they, they caressin' each other, and "I'll miss you every day of my life." It's not really like that, 'cause, believe it or not, there's some guys out there, he be with her for, like, a year. Once he get what he want, he's gone. You know? And then there's, there's some other guys that in one date, they get it, right? ] mean, pardon, you know, pardon the, if I And one day, they get it, and one day, they'll get it, you know, what they want? And then they'll stay with them. And it'll be, like, "Oh, I love you. I love you, please don't leave me," and she'll be, like, "Please. I don't know you from a whole in the wall." And he'll stay with her, "Oh, please, you know." There's a lot of situations out here that is so crazy, you wouldn't even believe it. You wouldn't believe it. I mean, there's girls out there, she sleep with him, you know, and it's his kid, but she'll go to this guy, and say, "Hey, it's yours." You know? And this guy's, like, "Hey, that's my kid." And like, "No, it's not. It's mine." You know? That's how it is.

SONNY FOX: That sounds like soap opera.

BEN POWELL: Most situations, a segment or episode of a soap opera which really got me looking', I don't know if they're in here, but "The Young and the Restless," the thing with the guy who, who was cheatin' on his wife, and he, he be, and the girl Keisha, she has HIV, and she died, and then they messed up the whole family, and then, that whole scene, that was real. That really hit home. It, it made me set the VCR to tape it every day. Because that was real, and it made me talk about. I brought the soap opera in, and we talked about it to the group, because that was something that was concrete that they could relate to. And this was a guy that was broke. It seems like everybody in a soap opera is rich. If you have a baby; the whole family's gonna take care of it, just go see Victor Newman, and everything'll be taken, you know. That's not, that's not real, you know. I don't see anybody going' on welfare on a soap opera.

SONNY FOX: Francesca, you had a question before?

FRANCESCA JAMES: It's sort of a complicated question. We're here to find out, I guess, how we can help change what's happened to you. And I guess my question is that if you watch "All My Children" or "Days of Our Lives," and you were 14, 15 years old, what could you have seen on those shows that would have helped you not to get into the situations that you're in now.

MAX SOTO: Don't make it look so easy to have a kid.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: Yeah.

RAYMOND RIOS: Don't make it look easy, for real. If you make it look easy, they're gonna be, like, "Oh, wow. That's how it is? Oh, well that's great." You know? Don't make it look easy at all. You know? Since, 'cause from the beginnin' of the pregnancy to the end, and even durin', make it look hard, like they, they, they really got to bust their chops to get what they want for their child. 'Cause it's not easy. It's not. 'Cause I seen this "All My Children," and they got this one kid bouncin' from family to family, and for, for, to me, it seems like the kid, he got what he wants, you know? And it looks like, to me, it looked like a lot of, you know, gossip, or whatever. I don't know. It's a scandal to me. But, don't make it look easy. Don't. And, I don't know, just don't. 'Cause you make it look easy, they gonna, everybody gonna start having' kids. 'Cause all, you know, all these young, all these young teenagers, the girls really watch these soap operas.

SONNY FOX: Ed.

ED PITT: One of the lessons that come from having this panel is that in the soaps when guys confront the notion, confront having sex with their partners, or are about to become fathers, maybe the soaps can show them talkin' to other guys about it. I mean, this is one of the thing's putting supports in for fatherhood and how fathers learn to get information about their responsibilities, duties, and opportunities, obviously, one of the messages coming from them is that there are a number of different places out there they do it in. They get it from each other, and they get it from the programs that they attend. If you talk about those support systems and about guys dealing with pregnancies, and guys dealing with solutions about guys dealing with their roles, I think that soaps will begin to educate guys, because clearly, guys watch soaps.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: I'm thinking of the moment of choice that you all were talking before about, it all comes down to the choice. And it's that moment of choice, "Do I use a condom or don't I," and how, how do you think that can change? In other words, when you go back to that moment, do you, in fact, "I don't want to lose it, it's awkward, it just won't go on," or whatever else were you thinking, "No," you knew about it, but you didn't want to do it.

SONNY FOX: Good question. Let me ask it another way. Max, you say, now you're never going to have another baby, now. How do you handle that now, when you didn't handle it before?

MAX SOTO: My girl already knows, she, she don't want to have none herself.

SONNY FOX: How do you do this? Is she on the pill?

MAX SOTO: Yeah, she's on the pill. We use condoms, now.

SONNY FOX: Okay. And, and that's an agreement you have with her.

MAX SOTO: Yes. Okay. Dan?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah, condom now, is sort of 'bout, like, it's about respect. Back then, I, I didn't respect the woman, 'cause I didn't really know nothin' about it. But now I know women are stronger than men. They, they go through labor.??: [MOANS] [LAUGHTER]

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah, guess what? It's true. It's true. Yeah.

MAX SOTO: I disagree, I disagree with him.

DANIEL TAVERAS: It's true. Women go, they have a kid, and that's hard work. They get that thing every month, you know. No, women go through a lot now, I think, even if my girl loves me, and she don't want to bring up the condom, I use it, 'cause, even if I don't like it, I respect her body, and I wouldn't like nothin' to happen to it. 'Cause now I respect women, since I had a kid. So, now that's why I use a condom with me. It's all about respect, know what I'm saying? Just 'cause I don't like it, why should I mess up her body or life? So I use it now, 'cause I respect women.

AUDIENCE WOMAN: But you've learned a lot, Daniel. And when you didn't, and, or let's say a friend of yours doesn't, a younger friend who hasn't learned the hard way what you have, and they watch on a soap opera somebody using a condom, do they believe it or not?

MAX SOTO: They'll believe it.

RAYMOND RIOS: The way, the way you can make 'em believe it is this, have the guy not use a condom. Make him, give him AIDS. Let 'em see what, let 'em see what, what can happen to, the consequences that could happen when you, when you don't use a condom. If a guy on a soap don't use a condom, let him have AIDS, or let the mother have the child, and let 'em raise it, and, and make it hard for the young father to raise up the kid. Don't make it so easy. Have him working', stressed out, not knowin' what to do, "Oh, my God," that message sends out to the young people, I mean, like, "Wait a minute. I mean, that guy, you know, he has AIDS, man. I don't, I don't want that to happen to me." You understand? "Oh, man. Look what he's going' through with his child? Wow, if I have a kid now, that could happen to me."

AUDIENCE WOMAN: I'm just wondering what you're going to tell all your children about teaching them responsibility, and how this has changed you, how you're going to deal with your kids about it?

RAYMOND RIOS: I'm gonna tell him exactly what happened to me. All the things I gave up. Really all the things I gave up, all the things I could've done. I also tell him I never regretted having him, but it did limit my options the minute it came.

SONNY FOX: What do you want for him?

RAYMOND RIOS: I want the best of everything. And I think I can give him that. I really don't know what's gonna happen, I don't know how I'm gonna go about gettin' it for him, but I have a plan, you know. And I think my plan'll work out fine, as long as I stick to it. And if I want my child to have a better life, and I'm going to stick to my plan and get busy.

SONNY FOX: Daniel?

DANIEL TAVERAS: Yeah. The first thing I'm gonna do is listen to my son. You gotta listen. That's why I'm with Ben, he always listens. And even if they got stupid things on their head, you have to listen to them. I never had nobody to listen to me. That's why I had to talk to people from the street, and they didn't gave me good example. If I asked a, a drug dealer, "What should I do to make money," he's gonna say, "Sell drugs." But if I would'a had somebody that works, "How can I get money," he would've told me, "Work." So I'm gonna listen to my kid, every word he says, see? 'Cause I don't want him to grow up sayin', if I tell him, "When'd that happen to you?" He'll be, like, "You, you was too busy to know." I don't want him to do that. The first thing I'm gonna do is to listen to him, talk to him every day. I'm gonna have, like, two hours every day, take two hours outta my busy schedule, if I have a schedule, and to listen to him. That's the first thing.

SONNY FOX: Max? What do you want for your child?

MAX SOTO: What I want for my child is, is a good education. I'm gonna talk about my experience to my child. What I went through, and then what I don't want them to go through. And, you know, I want to educate them, to let them see that, you know, you don't have to start having sex at a early age, because, you know, it just knocks your whole childhood out. I can never say that I had a good teenage life, because I never, you know, experienced it. I was a, a father since I was 17. I mean, it was hard for me, you understand? I didn't go and do what teenagers do, or none of that stuff. Just straight to fatherhood and I always kept a job, I gotta give it to myself. Always kept a job. But I'm gonna just put up, like, certificates on the wall, and let them see what I accomplished, so they could follow in my footsteps. I want to be a role model to my, to my child. To my kids.

SONNY FOX: Thank you gentlemen. [APPLAUSE]